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Quite so, Mr Kelly. What position Mr Cockshutt takes (except that anyone who dares to disagree with him has the mentality of a 14-year old) is rather more obscure. Personally, even at the age of fourteen, I knew that I did not want to be governed by a foreign superstate, and I have seen no reason to change my opinion since then. I really would like the Cockshutts and Fearnleys of this world to tell us what precisely they hope from "Europe" and how (assuming they do not hold it to be already perfect and infallible) they would propose to "reform it from within".